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Gap between extension and fence, party wall, and overlooking window?
09-11-2011, 03:58 PM
Post: #1
Gap between extension and fence, party wall, and overlooking window?
I am thinking about a rear extension as well as a small side extension as a toilet and storeroom. I want to build the side wall close to the fence. When I told my neighbour about my idea, he said I can’t build the wall close to the fence because he need access from my side to maintain the fence and his shed. I was quite shocked to hear this. They have a shed on their side, the shed is only 30cm to the fence. Now he does not want me to build a similar wall. I said I will leave 30cm gap as well, he said it is not enough, he wants me to leave at least 1 meter to his shed, that’s 70cm to the fence. Which is quite a lot, in that case, I can’t build the toilet and storeroom on the strip (the distance between the fence and my existing side wall is 1.6m). I said after my extension is erected, there is no use of that fence, if necessary he can take the fence off then the gap 30+30cm is his. He replied that he does not want to take the fence off. He said if my planning application is posted, he will raise objection unless I leave the gap he wants.
Honestly I feel very bad about my neighbours response, they were nice and friendly, I just don’t believe it.
I was told by someone that my neighbours request makes no sense, and I should go ahead with the planning application. I am just worried that even if I get the planning permission, will my neighbour make my life difficult? If I only leave 30cm to the fence, do we need to cross the fence for the building work (like scaffoldings)? I looked at the discussion about party wall, I wonder if party wall notice is required in my case. It is within 3 meters to their house, but I don’t think my single storey extension foundation will go deeper that my neighbours two storey house. Hence the notice is not required. Am I right? Or, the wooden fence is erected on a shallow brick wall, which is 30cm high. Will this shallow brick wall being considered as the “foundation” in the party wall Act? Then I must need a notice.
Another thing is I invited several architects come to have a look, everyone pointed out a window of my neighbours extension is overlooking my gardens. Although I haven’t minded, but I was told the window will devalue my property when I try to sell it. Their extension was build 15 years ago. Shall I use this point to exchange their consent to my extension? How do I talk to my neighbour?
I appreciate everyone’s suggestion. Thank you.
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09-11-2011, 05:05 PM
Post: #2
RE: Gap between extension and fence, party wall, and overlooking window?
Planning is one thing; Party Wall disputes another - and neighbour disputes make BOTH pains in the ****!

Suggest you read the CLG booklet available to download at http://www.communities.gov.uk/documents/...133214.pdf

If you cannot figure the answer to your sitution therein, consult a qualified & registered Party Wall Surveyor. There are some who may give you a few free minutes of advice.
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09-11-2011, 05:27 PM (This post was last modified: 09-11-2011 05:46 PM by D.H.A..)
Post: #3
RE: Gap between extension and fence, party wall, and overlooking window?
I think you will find that a wooden fence is not covered by the PWA
( ah - missed the bit about the fence being on a 300mm wall - so check it out , but below still applies )

However, there is thing called common decency and as you obviously wish to stay on friendly terms with your neighbours, try talking it through with them

Perhaps they are scared you are going to cause them some loss or damage, so see what their objections are - and take it from there.

There is no reason why such matters should be on a hostile basis.

Clearly your neighbours request of 1m is unreasonable, and in any case he needs your permission to enter your property to paint his fence ~ but likewise it is perhaps in your interest to have a well maintained fence. I have a similar "problem" with my Summer house adjacent to a boundary timber fence - albeit this fence faces on to the public highway . I have made the panels easily removable, so when the time comes to paint both fence and summer house access is easily found. Perhaps a similar suggestion may be benificial to you both

Perhaps your neightbour would prefer you bring your wall to the boundary ( using the PWA ) with a proviso he can use it should he ever wish to extend too ? Thus removing the need for a fence in that section.

There are lots of suggestions, you just need to find the one that suits you both

Hope this helps
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09-11-2011, 05:37 PM
Post: #4
RE: Gap between extension and fence, party wall, and overlooking window?
"I have a similar "problem" with my Summer house..."

My motorhouse is also built a little close to the folly but the boy who climbs the chimney to sweep it can be persuaded to carry out the maintenance of both!
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09-11-2011, 05:40 PM (This post was last modified: 09-11-2011 05:46 PM by D.H.A..)
Post: #5
RE: Gap between extension and fence, party wall, and overlooking window?
(09-11-2011 05:37 PM)nigelhooper Wrote:  "I have a similar "problem" with my Summer house..."

My motorhouse is also built a little close to the folly but the boy who climbs the chimney to sweep it can be persuaded to carry out the maintenance of both!

Forget the boy -- I need the work !
Mind you, the chimney would have to be about 1800 dia for me to fit in it
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09-11-2011, 06:11 PM
Post: #6
RE: Gap between extension and fence, party wall, and overlooking window?
Thanks guys.
Yes. The tricky thing is on the boundary there is a brick wall which is only 30cm above the ground. Then the wooden fence sits on the brick wall. Should this be classifed as party fence wall?

I just feel ridiculous that he can build close to the boundary, but don't allow me to do so.

(09-11-2011 05:27 PM)D.H.A. Wrote:  I think you will find that a wooden fence is not covered by the PWA
( ah - missed the bit about the fence being on a 300mm wall - so check it out , but below still applies )

However, there is thing called common decency and as you obviously wish to stay on friendly terms with your neighbours, try talking it through with them

Perhaps they are scared you are going to cause them some loss or damage, so see what their objections are - and take it from there.

There is no reason why such matters should be on a hostile basis.

Clearly your neighbours request of 1m is unreasonable, and in any case he needs your permission to enter your property to paint his fence ~ but likewise it is perhaps in your interest to have a well maintained fence. I have a similar "problem" with my Summer house adjacent to a boundary timber fence - albeit this fence faces on to the public highway . I have made the panels easily removable, so when the time comes to paint both fence and summer house access is easily found. Perhaps a similar suggestion may be benificial to you both

Perhaps your neightbour would prefer you bring your wall to the boundary ( using the PWA ) with a proviso he can use it should he ever wish to extend too ? Thus removing the need for a fence in that section.

There are lots of suggestions, you just need to find the one that suits you both

Hope this helps
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09-11-2011, 07:55 PM
Post: #7
RE: Gap between extension and fence, party wall, and overlooking window?
Provided the wall you are proposing to build is on your side of the boundary, the neighbour cannot object about its distance from the fence. Unless that is there is something in the title deeds of both your properties, which is unlikely. Planning permission is unlikely to be refused because of this, it is not a planning concern. DHA is correct that you could build the wall astride the boundary (so a party wall) but this would need your neighbour's permission but it would mean he could use the wall in the future. My advice is keep it amicable, I have seen a lot of petty neighbour disputes escalate into something very expensive. However, make sure you are not making too many compromises. Get in touch if you want any more advice. Jane
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09-11-2011, 11:45 PM
Post: #8
RE: Gap between extension and fence, party wall, and overlooking window?
Keeven

You made an interesting point that everyone seems to have missed (or at least I haven't read the full thread in full).

There is an existing wall demarcating the boundary with a wooden fence projecting vertically from the central point (or at least I believe this is the paraphrased description?). On this basis, this has all the signs of being a 'party fence wall' which is likely to be built on the boundary line (i.e. boundary is the centre point of brick wall). Therefore, under the Party Wall Act (the Act), you have a right to raise and lower the existing party fence wall (i.e. grub out, install suitable foundations which will project into your neighbours land and raise the wall), which will be in the same position/dimension as the current wall, yet more sturdy, etc.

Now the only caveat to the above is that raising a party fence wall, you cannot simply raise this using a cavity wall in stretcher brickwork to form your new extension. You will have to raise the existing wall (i.e. in the same construction to a sensible height). With the newly raised wall, you may decide to enclosure directly upon the new 'party fence wall' which will now form a 'party wall' - much the same, yet one is a garden wall and the latter is a wall forming a structure.

The benefit of raising and lowering the party fence wall is therefore to maximise the net internal area of your extension. Bluntly, it would appear that your neighbour will dissent to a party wall notice, thus you should make full use of your rights under the Act. Admittedly, to facilitate the above, you will require access to your neighbour's property (not a problem) and there will of course be 'making good or compensation costs' in this regard. Holistically, the benefit to you may out weigh these costs, etc.

As Jane mentioned, it is crucial for you to approach your neighbour and reach an amicable solution. This doesn't always work. Once clarified, I suggest you select a local party wall Surveyor and discuss feasible options in greater detail. It might even be worth you asking your neighbour which local Surveyor he would be minded to appoint, you can then appoint him and hopefully he will act in an 'Agreed Surveyor' capacity. This will ensure fees are kept to a minimum....

Let me know if you have any other queries.

Ryan
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10-11-2011, 03:47 PM (This post was last modified: 10-11-2011 03:49 PM by amapws.)
Post: #9
RE: Gap between extension and fence, party wall, and overlooking window?
Rmwilli4
You asre giving duff information here
A fence is not a "party fence WALL " it is a fence and does not come under the Party wall act.
A new WALL straddling the boundary would require the neighbours permission.
Any brick bond could be used as long as it works .

Keeven , Your neighbour has no common law right of access to come on to your land to maintain his wall .He or she cannot restrict your rights to build up to the boundary . He could get access through the courts but only in extreme necessity , painting or repointing would not be a necessity

However if you build up to the boundary and your neighbour does not allow access to enable you to build from his side build you would have to build "overhand" That can look messy on the outside , but if they do not give acccess then they have to look at it .

Please note , To build up to the boundary you will need to serve Line of junction Notice , but that is it it does not give you right of access to your neighbours land to build .
If your foundations /excavations are within 3m and lower than theirs you will also have to serve a section 6 notice , when they can ask for an award .

Go ahead with your planning application , the meek do not inherit , they just give up and get trampled on by bullying neighbours .
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10-11-2011, 03:54 PM (This post was last modified: 10-11-2011 03:55 PM by rmwilli4.)
Post: #10
RE: Gap between extension and fence, party wall, and overlooking window?
amawps

Of course a fence is not covered under the Act - this is why it's called the Party Wall etc Act (as you know, the etc covering party fence walls!). But the description of the existing stucture seemed to demonstrate that there was an existing brickwork wall within the soil (dwarf wall presumably) with a timber fence either attached to the centre or one side of the wall.

Being able to demonstrate that we are dealing with a 'party fence wall' rather than a simple fence boundary will circumnavigate the Line of Junction Notice you refer to and thus have significant benefit to Keevan. The benefit is therefore in terms of 'access to raise the wall' - do you agree?

Ryan
and the new wall straddling the boundary would need permission under a LoJ but we are dealing with a simple PS Notice.
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