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Dear all

We have recently purchased a percentage of shared ownership property with a timber weatherboard cladding.
I have attached a photo of the cladding. I am concerned with the gaps of around 20mm at the junction between cladding and window at the top and bottom of the window. The Housing association have accepted this as a finished job. I can't believe it! I can see the structural elements behind, it's timber framed.

Am I missing something or being unreasonable. I intend to pursue through the NHBC scheme.

The property was built by one of the top 20 builders in the country.

ps we are on the ground floor and during a previous wet period had water coming in They attached a piece of timber to the gap below the grey band but the others remain.

This post was last modified: 30-10-2009 11:10 PM by Mister p.

Mister p - welcome to the forum.

Funny one, this.

I hate weatherboard! Maybe, then, I should keep out of it - because my judgement is pre-tarnished...

Okay - I will try to be reasonable and unbiased.

Is the builder still on site? If so, have you taken it up with them? If not, have you taken it up with their Regional/Head Office?

Is the property definitely NHBC warrantied? Many companies now use the Local Authority Building Control as their warranty provider. In fact, I would speak to the BC Dept - they may well come and inspect the defect (Oh, yes!! - it's a defect, all right...) for you.

You say you own a share. Is it via a Government scheme, such as HomeBuy Direct, MyChoice Homebuy, or the likes - or were the homes built, under Contract, for the Housing Association?

Regardless, the builder has an obligation to all parties who own the property. You should have just as much right as the HA to approach the builder to request they remedy defects. It beggars belief that the Housing Association accept such shoddy workmanship and finish.

The outer skin of a property does not form part of the structural skeleton, it is simply there as weatherproofing. Clearly, you photos show this is not the case, and wind, water, and worse can and will ingress, causing untold problems in the short, medium and long term - not to mention the gaps will also provide easy access for insects, birds and rodents!

The NHBC Buildmark Warranty - formerly the "Structural Warranty" - now places emphasis on standards of finish as well as failure of structural elements of the property such as foundations, floors, load-bearing walls and roof timbers. There are "acceptable tolerances" for most aspects of build - after all, no-one can expect perfection when man and materials come together - but, believe me, there is no way what I see in your picture could be passed off as acceptable tolerance.

If you haven't got a copy of the Buildmark Warranty booklet, see here -

http://www.nhbc.co.uk/NHBCPublications/L...708,en.pdf

But I have taken the liberty of lifting the most important section relevant to your current situation below:

What you must do if you think there is a problem with your Home
1 It is important to inspect your Home before and after you move in. The Builder is responsible for investigating your complaints and for putting right Defects or Damage.
2 Contact the Builder, informing them of any items requiring attention as soon as you notice them. You should keep copies of any correspondence or any other information, such as notes of telephone conversations, as you may need these later to prove that problems were reported in the first 2 years.
3 If the Builder does not deal with your complaint to your satisfaction, contact NHBC (see page 5). We will usually offer our Resolution Service.
4 Tell us if the Builder is insolvent and give us the opportunity to inspect your Home.
5 If we ask for them, send us copies of any correspondence, contracts, plans, quotations, receipts and any other documents or information relating to your Home.

Please keep us informed as to your progress.

If I can be of any further help, please PM me. If I can't help, I'll know someone who can

Regards

PeeBee

This post was last modified: 31-10-2009 12:20 AM by PeeBee.

As the building is NHBC registered the wall construction is a cavity wall (Zurich allow non-cavity in some situations) and as such the timber you see behind the cladding are probably bearers carrying the timber cladding. There will be a breather membrane behind this which normally covers the internal skin of the cavity wall.

You say that you have water coming in but do not say where it is actually coming in. If it is coming in about the doors / windows it maybe that the builder missed the EPDM which seals the perimeter to them (this is something that the NHBC have recently been taking builders to task on). If it is coming in from elsewhere let us know and we might be able to make alternative suggestions.

Hi Mister p & welcome

I have A few questions that might help us out here :

a) what is the grey band made of ?

b) when you say you had water ingress, do you get this every time it rains?

c) do you get water ingress on non rainy days, say on a cold day or over night ?

d) has the boarding been described as "a rainscreen" at any time ?

e) can you tell us what the total build up of the wall is ?

f) what type of heating do you have ? Not just built in but also any portable types ?

g) you say you have recently purchased, but is the building brand new or have there been previous occupants ?


OK, now a few comments on what I can see

If you are getting water ingress, there is clearly & obviously something wrong. However, this is likely to be more serious than a few missing bits of timber. To me it looks like the job is not finished and a few trimmings ( aka flashings ) are still to be installed. These could be timber , steel, aluminium perhaps even lead but something to close off and protect the apertures and give your home an aesthetic finish.

However, even without these components, you should not get water ingress, so lets look further. Behind your timber outer skin there should be some form of insulation and behind that a VCL ( vapour control layer - normally a plastic sheet) You may also have a sheet of "paper" immediately infront of the insulation.

Can you see any of these ? or if you look through the gaps do you see the internal platerboard ( assuming that is what you have inside )

The VCL should be fully sealed and this flimbsy bit of plastic sheet should keep out all the rain when the outer layers fail. ( See these house builders only build tents, the other trimmings are really to make them look nice LOL ) As you are getting water ingress it suggests to me that either the VCL is missing, not correctly sealed or you have a condensation problem.

Action required ?

First of all dont panic about timber construction, this is a common format these days, though probably not the best.

Irresepective of how old the buildng is ( as long as it is 10 years or less ) your first port of call should always be the builder. If you approach the NHBC ( or similar ) they will usually ask you if you have done this and you have to pay a fee normally.

Now unless you want your life turned upside down for ever, try to avoid claiming through a warranty if you can. They usually move in the world and their wife and IMO go over board with repairs. A job I have recently worked on has been going on for 3 years or so. If you want to live with scaffolding around your house for that long, be my guest.

If you can get the builder to attend, that's great. It might be worth investing a few £ and get your own surveyor involved just to monitor what they are doing and to fully inspect what they have done. However, this may not be the only problem, and if they can pin it back to you it could cost you, so if you can answer the questions above, we may be able to help further

I trust you realise that this free advice is charged at treble time this time of day LOL
BTW, what size are the crows where you live, look at the size of those footprints on your wall !!

and last but not least, nice hair cut Mr P, (see your reflection in the window )

David


PS If you have a mortgage on this, what was your valuation surveyor doing ? Or is this post a wind up, as there are no curtains or wall decoration noted, and the place looks unoccupied ??????

This post was last modified: 31-10-2009 11:01 AM by DHA Ltd.

interesting

This post was last modified: 31-10-2009 02:09 PM by Bill Goodman.

Thank you all much appreciated.

To answer your questions:
Peebee
Is the builder still on site? No and All deals have been with HA I am considering going direct to the builder.

Is the property definitely NHBC warrantied? Yes


The homes were built for the HA and marketed by them. We did fill out a housing options application I think it was a requirement.

Thank you for offer of further help and info posted.


Smithers Jones

timber you see behind the cladding are probably bearers carrying the timber cladding. Yes you are quite right on this. The building is actually steel frame with precast floors.

There will be a breather membrane behind this which normally covers the internal skin of the cavity wall. (see photo)

When I first raised concerns the HA sent this back from the consultant


For your information the timber cladding is purely a rain screen cladding and is designed to drain via the cavity formed behind by timber battens. Water should not enter the building as the timber frame is covered with a water proof membrane behind the timber cladding.

The day I got this it chucked it down and inside the window reveals and head were soaked, the carpet was soaked and puddles formed on the window board.

the builder came out and filled in one of the gaps. (see attached) I was not happy and then got this back from the consultant via HA

The issue with the gaps to the timber cladding were raised at prior to handover with builder. This is on a list of outstanding defects which are being worked through currently by builder. We understand from feedback received by builder on Friday 16th October 2009, that works to the gaps below[above] the windows of bedroom 2 and 3 were completed, we have chased this up with builder this morning and will be carrying out a visit to site this week to sign off these works.

I asked to be told once inspection had taken place. That request was not acknowledged and I have not heard back.


If it is coming in about the doors / windows it maybe that the builder missed the EPDM. That's looking likely

DHA

a) what is the grey band made of ? sheet metal 1 or 2mm thick

b) when you say you had water ingress, do you get this every time it rains? Only had ingress during heavy persistent rain which has only occurred once while we have been here.

c) do you get water ingress on non rainy days, say on a cold day or over night ? No problem at those times and no problem with the one brick skinned window.
d) has the boarding been described as "a rainscreen" at any time ? Yes see quote above

e) can you tell us what the total build up of the wall is ? From the outside in: 20mm weatherboard, 50mm cavity, blue material thickness unknown (see photo),Then from the inside 2 sheets of 12mm plaster board. total wall thickness 250mm

f) what type of heating do you have ? Not just built in but also any portable types ? Only central heating used. We are very careful regarding condensation

g) you say you have recently purchased, but is the building brand new or have there been previous occupants ? We are the first


OK, now a few comments on what I can see

If you are getting water ingress, there is clearly & obviously something wrong. However, this is likely to be more serious than a few missing bits of timber. To me it looks like the job is not finished and a few trimmings ( aka flashings ) are still to be installed. These could be timber , steel, aluminium perhaps even lead but something to close off and protect the apertures and give your home an aesthetic finish.

I Think the reason we have had such a torrent in is because this property is at the bottom with 2 others above both with the same problem. I expect the cavity is open all the way to the top any water running down the face enters the cavity by capillary action and makes its way down to us.



The VCL should be fully sealed and this flimbsy bit of plastic sheet should keep out all the rain when the outer layers fail. ( See these house builders only build tents, the other trimmings are really to make them look nice LOL ) As you are getting water ingress it suggests to me that either the VCL is missing, not correctly sealed I think the later based on what the workmansip that is visible!





and last but not least, nice hair cut Mr P, (see your reflection in the window ) Very observant of you and I was trying hard to hide my Identity!
David


PS If you have a mortgage on this, what was your valuation surveyor doing ? Or is this post a wind up, as there are no curtains or wall decoration noted, and the place looks unoccupied ?????? No wind up the photo's were taken prior to move in We paid £500 for the lenders surveyor. I was hoping he would raise it and was disappointed with his obvious cut and paste job.

Attached
1) repair to one gap
2) view into cavity
3) Skirting board under one window showing damage to carpet from stored material (wet carpet) and wet skirting board

You say a steel frame with pcc floors what is the wall construction - metsec (i.e. light steel frame paneling) or blockwork? I would guess it is the former as this is a common defect arising on metsec type walling.

Subject to the above and based upon your response, I would put a pound to a penny that the epdm is missing about the windows perimeter - the NHBC require this to seal off the building. If they have owned used mastic this is not acceptable as the sole means of stopping rain ingress. I wouldn't be surprised if the mastic is missing.

Get them to take off some of the cladding about the windows and this will become evident within a few minutes.

Another common defect is horizontal bearers which traps the rain - check to see that all bearers are vertical.

SJ

Thanks for answers Mr P

OK as a rainscreen, then the missing trimmings are only cosmetic
None the less, you should not be getting water internally

I would agree with Smithers ( irrepective of construction ) the dpc's may not be present at window heads or base cill, but more likely the VCL is probably missing or not sealed
However is there a clear exit for water to escape at these locations, the base cill area looks to be mastic sealed ?????

You probably do not know this but has a VCL been installed behind the insulation ? ( by the plasterboard )

The blue "paper" that you clearly show in your latest photos is a breather membrane. This allows air to pass, but moisture only one way ( hopefully only out of the building providing it is right way round ) Both the VCL and breather should be sealed at all edges and laps.

wth regard to The metal feature strip, is it alumnium or steel Are the joints lapped or butted, and how much is it recessed.

The other thing that may help is a location. There are variations to bulding regs in different parts of the UK,

Sorry it's all questions, but it is the only way other than being there. In summary, the VCL and breather have both to be failing to allow your water ingress , this may be simple to fix in small locations, or it could be a strip and start again job

Regards

David

PS You have still not convinced me this is not a wind up yet, your windows are white internally and blue externally and teminate at different levels internally than externally hmmmmmmmmmmm

PPS appreciating that my backgound is industrial based, can the housey boys tell me, is 2 layers of 12mm Pbd for walls standard ? Or is this a fire wall ? Probably for another thread, but if for fire, what happens at windows ???? And should cavity not be closed between dwellings, albeit with an expanding firestip ?

This post was last modified: 02-11-2009 03:24 AM by DHA Ltd.

Thanks again
We are in Hackney London. No blockwork.
Got a soaking again internally after yesterday’s rain. This time though it only came in at the carpeted area as in the photo. The external wall at this point is like a feature window (i.e. blacked out glass. So the fix to date does appear to have worked.


I'll get back with some more photos and details as requested...and perhaps photographic evidence that this is genuine

I am rapidly loosing faith in those currently dealing with this, they don't seem to take it seriously, and I’m feeling like I am being fussy or something. I have asked the HA for a contact at the builders and may even suggest they have a read of this thread for some ideas. DHA, Despite your comments re NHBC going overboard, I would rather put up with some disruption and know the job was right, so really I want to get them on board ASAP(?) I am concerned that a temporary remedy will be found which only gets rid of the evidence of a problem that will come back to me 5 10 years down the line.

ps yes the question of whether the cavity is sealed at the grey band is one I would be interested to hear the answer to.

This post was last modified: 02-11-2009 12:05 PM by Mister p.

My guess the gaps in the cladding might have been intentional to take up differential movement between the steel frame and the cladding. Although the sizes of the gaps looks a little excessive, I don't believe they are the cause of your leaks, more a case of bad detailing.

I doubt there is little they could see or fix without removing the cladding.